Value assistance, please!
 

Hi, all! :chat: I would like to find out the value of a Krugerrand on a specific date (namely, December 3, 2004). I have been searching online for an hour and haven't even found a truly specific gold price. :banghead: Anyone know how I can get this information? I'd really appreciate it. :bowdown: (It's for work.) Thanks! :love:

Elisabeth

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

Why may I ask?

Dec 3 2004 NY close gold was 455.20

the markup depends on the dealer

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

Thank you for responding, Zhukher! :cheerful:
Here's the boring answer: :sleep: I work at a law firm and we're handling an estate in which there is (are) one or more Krugerrands and, if you don't know, in an estate it is necessary to know the value as of the date of death of the testator, hence my need.

Is the gold value the Krugerrand value, then? I understood there to be a premium on the coins, although they are less valuable than other coins, due to abundance. (Yep, I did learn things on the sites I visited, just not what I NEED to know!) :bawling:

Ya'll sure have fun smileys at your disposal!

Elisabeth

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

Use the spot price on that day +$2.00.Close enough for government work.:albertein

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

Thanks for the reply, BeefJerky! Now, would the "spot price" be what Zhukher gave me? The NY close price? Where is this information? I kinda need to print it out because valuations need a basis that can be displayed for the court, beneficiaries, etc. Thanks, again! :rose:

Elisabeth

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

Use the London FixKitco Inc. - Past Historical London Fix

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

A Krug was around $450 then. Maybe as high as $460 depending on dealer and quantity purchased.:applause_ :applause_ Maybe now you will go get some for yourself.:yippee: :yippee:

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Depends if you need your client more or less dollars it woudl be ny or london

kitco is your friend here

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

Thank you to both BeefJerky and Zhukher. I will check that site. I appreciate the advice.

The point is to get the true value of a Krugerrand on 12/3/2004. Apparently it's not so specific as that, tho', I take it. Anyway, I'm hoping the information I have gotten from you two will be enough. Thank you, again.

Elisabeth

P.S. My dad bet on gold in the 70s & 80s and failed; I'm a bit wary.

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

I think if you study a little more, you will find Gold & your father did not fail, the central bankers and FIAT barely survived...

Very close to currency collapse, a lot closer than most Americans realize...

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That was hard to do. Kudos to papa. :rofl:

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

http://kitco.com/scripts/hist_charts/daily_graphs.cgi

the first link should be historical fix on that date or 455.20 NY Close as was stated prior.

There are different prices worldwide because of currency exchange rates. You are into a world wide market and not a US specific market. The Kruggerands you discuss are from South Africa. They are the most inexpensive of the collectible 1 oz gold coins, thereby having a lower premium. Premium is the difference between the spot price and the buy it price or out the door price.

http://www.tulving.com/goldbull.html

The second link is to a precious metals dealer on the net. Tulving.com.
You can find the current price for Krugs there. They list Krugs at 569.90 and spot at 562.40. This amounts to a $7.50 premium per 1 oz coin, or 1.3%. Add 1.3% to the 455.20, and you get $461.25 per coin value on that date. This will put you very close.

There is plenty of supporting data at both sites to compare and print out. You should be good to go.

The picture is of a Kruggerand. Make sure that is what you have as each coin is different, and carries a different value.

As for your dad, that is too bad, but he didn't have the benefit of instant knowledge like today with the internet. Do some snooping around, and you are going to find that you won't make the same mistakes as your dad, whatever they may have been.

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

Wow, thanks a LOT, guys. You're swell. :cheerful: I appreciate the additional info which sounds like it will be a lot of added assistance and backup. I also appreciate your support of my dad--I was a kid and only know what I was told after his death, that he did poorly in his investing forays, particularly gold.

Now...any updates if the date should have been 12/3/2005? (Yeah, can you believe it? I'm the secretary here, so I'm just doing what I'm told.) I'll check that London site for that date and look at it based on the other information you've given me.

Thanks again--what a great bunch you are!

Elisabeth

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

Smack your boss for me OK?

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haha, lhslancers! Everyone else you can stop now! :ARMS1: The paralegal says she has what she needs, so I don't want you to do any more work for me. You've been great and I really appreciate all your help! :banana:

Elisabeth

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

if your smart you will go get yourself some silver....

look into it....

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What's the deal with investing in gold and silver and that kind of thing vs. stocks and bonds and cds, etc.? I mean, whoever's interested in giving me the scoop. I'm sure I can find the info, but I figured that if you like promoting it, perhaps you'll just pass on the insight...?

E

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

Well, some might say "You just opened a big can of worms"

I would say you are at the right place....

You are in a commodity/Precious metal bull market, its been going on since roughly 2001...

you probably have at least 5 more years left, maybe longer (hopefully longer)

I am sure we are going to get a lot of reponses....

lots of very smart folks here....

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

There is a whole new world with which you are not familiar,
There is no short explanation, unless you are already familiar with the US dollar and how it reacts with other world currencies, that the Fed Reserve is not Federal at all, but a private bank controlled by some persons you and I will never meet, or that the dollars you carry around in your pocket are being depreciated every minute of every day.

I'll just say there are a vast number of reasons, and by looking at the charts of the most recent past, you may see that others are catching on also.

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

Silver averaged 29% return last year, and Gold did 18%...

how does that compare to your CD's or Bonds, or any mainstream stocks?

Silver is the place to be....

its doubled in price in the last 3 years, will probably keep doing that for awhile...

double digit returns....

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

Hmmm...well, I'm happy to say that the money I have had invested since '91 has made an average of 25%, but that's interesting about silver. How, though, does one invest in silver? Is it a tangible thing, like a house, or is it on paper like stocks, or what?

E

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

Silver rounds, 10 ounce silver bars, junk silver (U.S. Dimes, quarters, halves pre 1965)

most folks tend to stay away from the 100 ounce bars

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

I made over 150% in the stock market one year and lost it all the next year. There is a big difference between say, getting 20% while risking everything versus getting 20% and risking little. That's the difference between tangible assets and paper promises from crooks.
You are smart if you can play against the house and win, good for you! But don't forget you played in a game that was rigged in someone else's favor. These are uncertain times, to say the least. I wouldn't want to be caught with my life savings in paper promises (or just hopes) when "it" happens.

If you decide to invest in gold or (better yet) silver, take possession of physical bullion. If you can't hold it you don't own it.

Good luck to you.

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

Elisabeth,

You can do as Sarge says in the actual physical product. That should be the first thing I always reco.

With discretionary funds, part of a portfolio should be in the metals. It isn't just gold and silver flying, it is Platinum, Palladium, Copper, and so on.

There are a large number of opportunities out there right now, and a whole lot of duds too. You will need to study it for a bit before committing anything.

The physical you can purchase anytime. There is the very real possibility that gold and silver are going to take out their old highs from the early 80's of 850 and 50 per ounce respectively.

For physical silver, you can add to the shopping list, American 1oz Eagles, and Canadian 1oz Maples are great. For gold 1 oz coin type, there are besides the Krugs, different offerings also. Go to that Tulving site I gave you. You will find costs and pictures of all of this.

Study the '29 period, you will see what happens to people who overstay their welcome in the normal Stock Market.
Wiped out in less than a day.

Best of luck,

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

one other thing I thought to add,

Gold & Silver bullion are the only assets that are not simultaneously someone elses liability (think on that for a minute or 2)

this is where they get their unique strengths...

Bonds, stocks, paper currency all rely on someone else to give them value...(to redeem them, or to hold their value)

Gold & Silver Bullion rely on no one, they are independent, that is why they are considered "Financial Bedrock"

no other asset can do that for you....

when you understand what I just wrote, you will understand the "true value" of gold & silver bullion....

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

All very interesting and food for thought. I'd like to think some of what you say is paranoia, but... Happily, while I start at '91, I did get through '87, too (my situation was just a little different then). I'm always told to think long-term when investing and I don't do it myself, anyway--I trust my manager, something I can't imagine any of you guys doing! So, maybe just start collecting? How do you get coins--can I find them at garage sales or something like that? Or do I have to go to shows? On that estate with the Krugerrand, there are also over 1000 silver dimes and a bunch of 1/2 and whole dollars. Those are worth more than face, huh? That's cool. It sure sounds more fun that just paper stuff, and I see what you mean about ownership, like real estate. Of course, someone has to want it...only worth what the market'll bear and all that... Isn't that true of everything? But less risky is the point, huh?

E

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

Nothing is forever - markets always change - a rule of thumb I have heard for decades is that you should have 10% of your portfolio in precious metals.

most people here believe we are in the early stages of a tremendous bull market in precious metals - gold and silver particularly -

Some of the reasons why and interesting reading no matter what markets you are invested in are summed up pretty well at this link

http://goldismoney.info/forums/showt...337#post184337

Your dad simply may have been ahead of his time. This situation has been unfolding for some decades and may be another decade till some resolution point is reached.

What most/many of us believe sounds "whacko" to mainstream economists and ten or fifteen years ago was only spoken loudly by a few "maverick economists". Now however, a number of mainstream voices saying similar things are becoming a growing chorus saying things that were considered "unamerican" just a few years ago.

These problems are real and no one knows how these scenarios will unfold. It is safe to say that Warren Buffet, Paul Volcker, George Soros and others think the dollar will do poorly in coming years, so if you own stocks, bonds,various equities you will do poorly due to the dollar denomination.

What you will read and see here at GIM may at first sound unconventional to say the least.

Just read with an open mind and do read the interview at that link.

If you find that compelling information, come back - hang around, make up your own mind.

Best regards

Ken

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

The dimes are called pre-1965 US 90% silver coins. They sell by a multiple of face value(currently 7.05) so one thousand dimes or $100 face value would sell for $705 or so. Thats what Tulving sells them for including delivery.
http://www.tulving.com/goldbull.html
It doesn't matter if they are dimes, quarters or halves, the multiplier is the same (sometimes halves slightly more). There are 715 troy ounces pure (plus some copper) in a $1000 face value bag. That includes wear. Uncirculated 90% is 723 ounces per bag but you won't see many of them.
Local coin shops often sell the 90% coins, one ounce bars and rounds, 100 ounce bars etc.
The one and ten ounce bars are beautiful and a pleasure to own, The 90% gets you more silver for your money, which I prefer.
Most folks here prefer silver because there seems to be more upside potential. If you want gold, one ounce Krugerrands at 4 or 5 bucks over spot are a good buy. Get the Krugerrands from reputable dealers only.

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

This is neat stuff. I'll check out those links and I'll have to find a coin shop to check it out. :rolleyes: How cool to own a bar of silver!

E

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

So you have been getting a average yearly return on your investments of 25 percent since 1991, what are you invested in exactly?

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

Wow did we just accidentally get a new precious metal bug? hehe.

Hey Elisibeth, here is a couple other sites to check out if you decide you want to pursue learning about PM's. This will save you some time from google.

Freshly updated daily editorials on gold and silver markets:
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials.html

And another even better site on PM's, energy and the economy with audio interviews:
http://www.financialsense.com/

:beer:

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

Wow. Like bees to honey. Won't you guys feel stupid when you find out that Elisabeth is none other than Nonson. :aetsch:

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I'm embarassed to say that I pay very little attention to it. They buy and sell without my sayso. I know it's diverse, but I'd have to have the paperwork in front of me to answer you.

E

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

Thought that was what you were going to say. :wink:

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Hey, what's "nonson"?

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

P.S. Thank you all so much for all the info; it's going to take me a long time to get thru' it all but I appreciate the time and effort YOU expended in giving it to me!

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

I don't know if Elisabeth is Nonson, but I don't think Elisabeth is for real, either _big grin_

Regards

Ken

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

What makes you think that?

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

I was kidding about Nonson but I kind of doubt the veracity of the poster.

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Why? :hmmmm:

She seems legit too me. Espescially if she's hot (just kidding).

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

yep.

I also wondered about

http://goldismoney.info/forums/searc...earchid=466505

regards

Ken

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

Um, I didn't mean to start any infighting here. I really did need to know about the Krugerrand for work and was intrigued by the precious metals "sales pitches." In fact, I looked at my paperwork this morning and don't see that I've got any money in metals, so I was thinking of talking to my advisor (at the same time I ask him to quit investing me in Mitsubishi!).

I don't like that some of you don't believe in me (although I'm not sure what you mean by it). Maybe you could ask me some validating questions or something?

Elisabeth

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

Well don't let it scare you off, just keep hanging around, and folks get to know you, and you will learn a lot...

no real rules here, except no personal attacks....

we even let a few socialists post here (H.T. For example)

Welcome Back, hope you stick around....

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

Ok what are you wearing right now? :wavey:

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I'm not scared off, I guess, I just don't understand why anyone would think I'm b.s.ing...is that a problem on this site?

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Kidding post away. Watch out for gpond though.:character

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

no problems with B.S. here, if you try it, folks will eat your lunch

We had a member (in good humor, and fun), who changed his user-Id, he is a male,and came back as a female...

all in good fun,

well your arrival coincided with another member, who had a 3 day suspension for a personal attack (remember the 1 rule here), so he was due back on the day you started posting, so I think some folks were speculating we had another case of "Sex change via User-id"

Hope that makes sense

it was all in good fun, nothign against you...

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

I'm way to dedicated to honesty to do that kind of thing ('course, why would you all know that...?). My veracity is, actually, 99% unquestionable, I'm happy to say. (I leave 1% room for forgetfulness and diplomacy.) And black pants and a dark green turtleneck. :yippee: (In the interest of integrity, I'm not doing jumping jacks--that little guy is doing them in my stead.) :wink:

Elisabeth (yeah, really--I used my real name!)

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

You might want to get out of that habit. Gold and silver are lawyer proof invetsments. There might even be other reasons not to leave a paper trail......

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

I hadn't done the chatting/message board thing in so long and I just wanted to ask the one question originally, that I didn't even think about making up a screenname, but thank you for the tip. What do you mean by "lawyer-proof"? I can't imagine there's much that is... And I'm too naive, trusting, and gullible to be worried about "the man," if you're getting into that, re: the "paper trail." :tongue:

E

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

Naive, trusting and gullible. Now that sounds promising. :bandit:

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Hah! What is THAT supposed to mean? :afraid:

E

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You're a triple threat. That's good.

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No, I'm tripley threat-free! :boxing:

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

Hypothetical situation:Elizabeth gets sued and has a judgement of 600K against her. She doesn't care because she has all her wealth buried in the woods.

Another hypothetical situation:
Elizabeth buys much gold and silver in her own name. This information falls into the wrong hands. Use your imagination to define "wrong hands".

Having precious metals hidden and secret is the ultimate in financial security.

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

I was thinking that might be where you were headed. First, what good does precious metal (or gems or food or dollar bills or bodies) do me buried in the woods? I'd hate to have to change my name/SSN/etc. to be able to use it. Or to, heaven forbid, trust someone else to cash it in for me. Second, if I have assets, a judgment is against my assets and hiding (cheating, lying, whatever you want to call it) them doesn't cause them to cease existing. Third, whatever ISN'T naive in me realizes that there are thieves in the world (heck, on my street), but what IS naive in me really likes the kharma method of safety...and I've made it this far...but naive isn't stupid, necessarily, just less worried (and more likely to get screwed, I suppose...). I do appreciate your concern for my welfare, tho' (or the welfare of the general populace).

P.S. While it does sound like our sensibilities are a ways apart, most of this was said tongue-in-cheek--please don't take offense! :wink:

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

Elizabeth,
PM investing is for people with far less trust in the government, the future and the system than most.
You would not have to change your name/identity to spend your wealth. You could live a superficailly modest lifestyle yet pay cash and have everything you want. It just takes a little ingenuity.

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

I'm hoping mistrust isn't a requisite, tho'...

I would think, if one were hiding non-cash wealth, that conversion to cash would raise a flag or two. I get that it's physical and so can be hidden, but (thinking on that alone) wouldn't cash be better? I mean, you'd still have to lie to keep it a secret asset, but you wouldn't have to trade it in to buy things.

I think I understand, tho', that part of it is a fear of the dollar devaluing to the point of uselessness (get your wheelbarrow to buy a loaf of bread and that kind of thing).

But in regard to hiding one's assets...I would think a silver bar would draw more attention (when being converted) than, say, a Tiffany lamp or a strand of pearls.

Now, this is just an undereducated sheep talking, but I don't understand the full importance of putting your money in metal, other than diversity and fun and it being technically more valuable than a piece of paper.

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

In times of peace and prosperity, pearls and tiffany lamps will sell. I don't forsee that kind of future. You can sell gold and silver without raising flags now, but it might get more difficult as tyranny progresses.

Cash on the other hand would be a poor chioce. The probability of even higher inflation than we have had in the last few years is great. Federal Reserve Notes are just green toilet paper to which our rulers have mandated value. If you bury cash and they "issue" another 250 trillion dollars that cash won't much.

In any case, I think you would be glad you put 20% of your wealth in physical metals.

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

Elizabeth, precious metals are not an all the time or in every era, a good investment. Generally speaking, it seems like once in a generation, precious metal find there true value and that is (of course) when you want to be in them. Gold has doubled in about 5 years and silver has doubled in 2 1/2 years, that is good for starters, but this generation bull market has a long way to go.

Don't take anybody's word for it, do some research and see what you find.

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

Well I disagree with this,

10% minimum should be in bullion (during peace times), now i think 25% is a good minimum....

Remember what I said about Gold & silver being the only assets that are completely independent...

they should be in everyones portfolio, whether you are worth $5,000.00 or 500 million

nothing can replace the safety and security of Gold & silver...

they have unigue strengths.

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

Disagree if you want, but if you had 25% of your net worth invested in gold and silver that you bought in 1980 at the top of the market (which many did or else it wouldn't of reached $50. and $800.) you are still so far under water that it will take 10x increases in silver and 5x increases in gold just to break even...in purchasing power, not counting the high returns you missed from real estate, bonds and stocks during that period.

The trend is your friend, dogma is for religious converts.

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

Read my post again, were we at war in 1980?

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

in case anyone misses it, peace time = 10%

Active war = 25%

war is the biggest inflation generator known to man....

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

Inflation and currency devaluation are what drive the metals. In the U.S., from just a brief review of gold and silver prices during war (WW1, WW11, Korea, Vietnam, Gulf 1 and 11 and other smaller wars like Grenada and Nicaragua) don't reflect your contention.

Let's see some facts to back up your statement.

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

Well you need to read some history I guess,

The U,S, has destroyed 2 currencies during wartime, the continental during the revolutionary war, and the green back & the confederate script during the civil war...


War bonds that were sold to the American publis during WW2, the same amount of money would buy 10 pairs of shoes, during redemption the Bond would buy less than 1 (the mogambo guru did an article on that awhile back)

War is inflationary, it is the most inflationary event a country can do...

The U.S. has had no real wars except the civil war, and the revolutionary war, and they both "Broke the bank"

Both world wars we entered very late in the game, and everyone else was "tired of fighting"

Korea and Vietnam, while inflationary, were more "police actions"

How does a govt pay for war?
Answer: Taxes or inflation

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

and I should add,

Politicians will always choose inflation over taxes....

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

You might do well studying a little history yourself, the U.S. created the Continential and Greenback to fund war, they weren't destroyed by war when that was there purpose.

I would still like to see some historical facts as to why you think gold and silver should be increased to 25% of your assets during war?

Personally, I think during a commodity bull market (like exist now and previously existed in the 70's) 25% is a low number. I'm way more than 50% into the metals and stocks and have seen my net worth more than double in the last three years. I plan on staying in the metals until the fundamentals of supply and demand change or until a situation of "irrational exurberance" drives the metal prices beyond the corresponding
value of other forms of wealth.

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

I'm nearly 100% in inflation hedges.

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

George Washington's famous quote "a Wagon load of Continentals will scarcely buy a wagon load full of goods..."

I guess we define currency destruction differently, huh?

25% is the minimum during an active war, the pentagon has openly stated this war will "last generations"

to your average American getting them to invest 25% into Precious metals is like pulling teeth, personally I am in for a higher percentage

25% is a minimum during a war

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

During the last commodity bull market in the 70's, the gains in gold and silver happened after peace broke out....which is when you pay the piper, unless you default on your debt or your country is physically destroyed during war... then cigarettes, food, drink, drugs, etc. are the medium of exchange.

The reality may be that war (the organizing principle that society is formed around) may be keeping the whole economic system as we know it afloat. It is distasteful to recognize the roll that war plays in the economic affairs of modern war machine economies, but it is what it is. Peace breaking out this time may mean default on debt and deflation, in which case gold and silver's value will be questionable (better than nothing...but the gains in personal wealth will happen as a result of inflation).

It's not a win-win situation.

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

Inflation has a way of starting, and then not stopping real easy...

Part of the problem with measuring inflation has to do with Velocity (how often are people exchanging their dollars, number of transactions) and the increase in money supply...

you can increase the money supply, but if people hoard the dollars, it does not really show up in the system,

versus people that are skittish, who see rising prices, and want out of their dollars ASAP

the velocity increase can make a mild inflation seem worse than it is, or it can take a bad inflation and hide it...

China has been hoarding T-bill, bonds, and our dollars for awhile, their velocity is low on these items, so they are actually hiding our inflation...

my point in this example is this, yes some of the real gains in Gold & Silver were made in the last part of the Bull, We officially ended Vietnam in 75 I believe, and it was not until 1980-81 we saw all the peaks in Gold & Silver

part of that was velocity was increasing, as dis-trust in the dollar grew, so did the velocity

part of that is inflation once it is started is hard to stop. the dollar nearly died, runaway inflation,

the other part is that the mass psychology seems to dictate that the last 20% time wise of the bull market, accounts for 80% of the price movement, this applies to all bull markets...
it must be the herd mentality....

I hope they do not kill the dollar this time, but I am not sure she will survive another bout with double digit inflation for years and years...

Might be the end of the dollar...

wars are very very expensive

Peace
Sarge,

We can chat on this next week if you like, I gotta get some stuff done....
be away form the computer for awhile....

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

Thanks again for all the input. It isn't then a "rule" to have 20% of one's investments in precious metal, but a good idea, at least in the current climate, right? Plus it's pretty and fun and doesn't decay when hidden. :clap2:

Elisabeth

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

if you wonder why you should have 25% of your investments in physical bullion during a war, take a look at this site...

http://nationalpriorities.org/index....per&Itemid=182




and please remember this is only the money spent that has been approved by congress, a lot of funds get funneled there without any approval....

Got Gold?

Re: Value assistance, please!
 

So, 25% during a war? I'll take a look at that link. Thank you.

Elisabeth